JSW64: Manic Miner

[IRF]

This topic has been created to accommodate a discussion about the differences between the original "Manic Miner" and "JSW64: Manic Miner", John Elliott's automatic conversion of "MM" to the JSW64 game format.

The starting point for this discussion was Daniel's post about new additions to his JSW Central YouTube channel, which provoked Ian's response and several more posts, which have now been moved to this topic.

Daniel's original post:

This game to Videos of both variants of "JSW64: Manic Miner" have now been added to the JSW Central YouTube channel. Here they are:

JSW64: Manic Miner Variant W

JSW64: Manic Miner Variant Z

I re-recorded RZX walkthroughs of both variants in order to improve on my previous recordings, made in October 2006 (currently still hosted on the RZX Archive). I was able to bring the completion time down from 7:38 am to 7:35 am in-game time.

Interestingly, this is approximately the completion time of "MM" expressed "on a JSW time scale". "Approximately", because "JSW64: Manic Miner" plays *almost exactly* like the original "MM", but not 100% (the most notable difference being the ability to jump over the horizontal guardian at the floor level in "Amoebatrons' Revenge" the first time it comes Willy's way after entering the room - this does spare some time in comparison with playing the original "MM").

 

Ian's first response:

 

On 9/30/2023 at 4:13 PM, jetsetdanny said:

Interestingly, this is approximately the completion time of "MM" expressed "on a JSW time scale". "Approximately", because "JSW64: Manic Miner" plays *almost exactly* like the original "MM", but not 100% (the most notable difference being the ability to jump over the horizontal guardian at the floor level in "Amoebatrons' Revenge" the first time it comes Willy's way after entering the room - this does spare some time in comparison with playing the original "MM").

Does that guardian have a different initial frame of animation compared with initial Manic Miner?

Or perhaps this is another example of where the value of the internal clock upon entering the cavern (if it happens to hold an odd or even number) can change the gameplay? And if you had entered the cavern a single 'tick' later, one of the slow-moving horizontal guardians would have moved one tick sooner or later, and thus Willy wouldn't have been able to pass along the floor of the cavern as early as you did? 

[IRF]

1 hour ago, IRF said:

Does that guardian have a different initial frame of animation compared with initial Manic Miner?

Or perhaps this is another example of where the value of the internal clock upon entering the cavern (if it happens to hold an odd or even number) can change the gameplay? And if you had entered the cavern a single 'tick' later, one of the slow-moving horizontal guardians would have moved one tick sooner or later, and thus Willy wouldn't have been able to pass along the floor of the cavern as early as you did? 

After investigating, it isn't either of those factors.  In fact, Willy's frame of animation upon entry to a cavern turns out to be based on his last animation frame in the previous cavern (which is I suppose what happens in JSW). So whilst he is given new coordinates for the next cavern at a cellular level, his precise position within his starting 2x2 block of cells can vary.

See the attached image - if you get into that position and jump straight upwards into the Warehouse portal, then upon entry to Amoeba's Revenge Willy is three paces further forwards than he would be in the original Manic Miner (where he enters AR with his back to the wall).

This could have implications for how you could select an initial animation frame in ALL of the caverns, to optimise your performance.  So the gameplay (and maximum possible score) could potentially be quite different throughout all the caverns of JSW64:MM compared with MM! 

Edited September 30, 2023 by IRF

[IRF]

15 minutes ago, IRF said:

See the attached image - if you get into that position and jump straight upwards into the Warehouse portal, then upon entry to Amoeba's Revenge Willy is three paces further forwards than he is in the original Manic Miner (where he enters AR with his back to the wall).

In fact, having just watched the relevant part of both Danny's walk through, Willy entered Amoebatron's Revenge just two animation frames forward compared with the MM start position for that cavern. But that's enough to achieve an early jump over the first horizontal guardian.

It looks quite tight, so I suspect (though I haven't checked) that starting off one animation frame ahead of normal wouldn't quite be enough to clear it safely. On the other hand, starting off three steps ahead opens up the possibility that you could have achieved an even better score for that cavern? (Depending on whether or not you have to hang around later on in the cavern for guardians to get out of the way, which might undo the time advantage.)

And that's just one cavern...

[IRF]

Compare and contrast The Endorian Forest in the two videos that Danny linked to in his last post above. Willy starts off two steps ahead in one compared with the other (because he entered the Wacky Amoebatron portal in different positions). That factor alone may have enabled an improved performance/score in one incarnation of the Forest (though I haven't checked that yet).

[IRF]

Note that Willy's facing direction is switched around between the end of Wacky Amoebatrons and the start of Endorian Forest. So in that respect, John Elliott's cavern startup data from JSW64:MM reflects the original cavern data from Matthew Smith's MM. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by IRF

[jetsetdanny]

Thanks for your insightful analysis, Ian! 👍

  

22 minutes ago, IRF said:

On the other hand, starting off three steps ahead opens up the possibility that you could have achieved an even better score for that cavern? (Depending on whether or not you have to hang around later on in the cavern for guardians to get out of the way, which might undo the time advantage.)

You do hang around later on, so the only thing that does matter at the start is to clear the horizontal guardian. It doesn't matter whether you're two pixels ahead or not at this point.

At least that's my take on it, without trying to produce a pixel-perfect performance in this cavern (or the other ones). 

As for the other caverns - yes, you could certainly make some improvements over the performance seen in the videos. Not necessarily because of the starting points - because in most rooms you do hang around later on in the room, so getting a couple of pixels' head start wouldn't make any difference for the completion time of the room.

I doubt that any small improvements made after the last 'hanging around' point in each room would yield a *visible* result. To yield such a result, the game's completion time (which I consider to be the moment of reaching the swordfish sign, being an equivalent of the toilet in JSW, kind of) would have to be improved by at least one minute (it's currently 7:35 am; you would have to go down to 7:34 am).

That's the big difference between MM scores and JSW times. In MM, where you have points, you can see an improvement of even a couple of points easily. In JSW, where you have the timer (if you have one at all, as it has been eliminated in some games), the only "value" you see as different is a minute of the completion time. 

I'm sure one could go into analysing the state of the timer (how many ticks are missing until the next full minute), but personally, I wouldn't go into such level of detail, which for me would go against the original design (where hours and minutes are what the player sees, not the internal timer's ticks).

So either it's a minute's improvement over the previous best completion time, or no improvement at all...

[jetsetdanny]

3 minutes ago, IRF said:

Note that Willy's facing direction is switched around between the end of Wacky Amoebatrons and the start of Endorian Forest. So in that respect, John Elliott's cavern startup data from JSW64:MM reflects the original cavern data from Matthew Smith's MM. 

Is there really a cavern startup data in "JSW64:MM"? I thought in "JSW64:MM" the starting point in the next cavern reflected Willy's position in the previous cavern (the way he stood when he entered the portal). So I thought it really depended on the player how they finished the previous room, which made the "Amoebatrons' Revenge" trick (passing the horizontal guardian without waiting) possible.

But perhaps I'm wrong on that.

[IRF]

29 minutes ago, jetsetdanny said:

Is there really a cavern startup data in "JSW64:MM"? I thought in "JSW64:MM" the starting point in the next cavern reflected Willy's position in the previous cavern (the way he stood when he entered the portal). So I thought it really depended on the player how they finished the previous room, which made the "Amoebatrons' Revenge" trick (passing the horizontal guardian without waiting) possible.

But perhaps I'm wrong on that.

You're right in terms of Willy's initial frame of animation - in fact, that's the very observation I just made, which explains how you got away with your trick!

But of course there must be cavern startup data in the wider sense - not just initial facing direction, but coordinates at a cellular (ie character space) level - otherwise, after jumping into a portal at the top right corner of The Warehouse, Willy would respawn in Amoebatrons' Revenge at the top right corner!

Although the cavern setup routine is seemingly bypassed if you use the teleport feature (the code for which is TYPEWRITER, I believe, as per the Software Projects version of MM) in order to switch caverns - using that, you can go straight to any part of a cavern you like. Imagine what a good score you could achieve if you headed straight to the top level of the Amoebatron caverns! (Though you would have to manage the risk of spawning in the path of a guardian!)

Edited September 30, 2023 by IRF

[IRF]

14 hours ago, IRF said:

But of course there must be cavern startup data in the wider sense - not just initial facing direction, but coordinates at a cellular (ie character space) level - otherwise, after jumping into a portal at the top right corner of The Warehouse, Willy would respawn in Amoebatrons' Revenge at the top right corner!

In fact, now that I think about it, you wouldn't even get that far... Without appropriate cavern startup data, after completing the Central Cavern Willy would end up in an Infinite Death Scenario! Because entering the Cold Room at the same coordinates as the Central Cavern portal would cause an instant collision with the penguin (which starts out hiding behind the Cold Room portal that shares the same position in the bottom right corner)!

Edited October 1, 2023 by IRF

[IRF]

Playing around, entering caverns with Willy advanced as far as possible within his initial startup 2x2 block of cells, I've discovered that in both The Vat and The Endorian Forest you can achieve an early jump over the first guardian you encounter, allowing for a significant improved performance. (In the case of The Vat, it is possible to drop down to the bottom and jump leftwards over the yellow kangaroo whilst it is moving rightwards near the bottom right corner, without having to follow it to the portal and wait for it to turn around before jumping over it.)

That's my most significant discoveries so far, but there may be more caverns where quicker completion times can be achieved in JSW64:MM via judicious selection of final animation frames at the end of the preceding cavern.  They may even accumulate to such an extent that is noticeable in terms of minutes on the on-screen clock!

Edited October 1, 2023 by IRF