JSW64: Manic Miner

[jetsetdanny]

I thought about "Manic Mixup" as well as an example of levels of difficulty. I would definitely agree here.

However, I also relate to the word "level" being used for any kind of game where passing on to the next screen/game map/part of game map, etc. depends on solving the previous level (which may be a screen/game map/part of game map, etc.) successfully.

"MM" is a perfect example of a game having levels in this sense. One screen (room, cavern) is equivalent to one level.

Interestingly, in "Double Miner" I would say that there are 10 levels, but 20 rooms/screens/caverns, because the player needs to solve two rooms/screens/caverns before moving on to the next level.

"Double Miner" is also an interesting test for Ian's definition of a cavern, because each pair of rooms consists of a "non-portal room" and a "portal room". You can move between them freely, but you can only progress to the next level of the game (the word 'level' comes in so handy here!) after collecting all of the items in both rooms, which activates the portal. So are both of these rooms caverns or not? I would only say that individually they are not levels; together each pair of rooms creates a level.

Another consideration: speaking about 'levels' defined as I described at the start of this post, I believe the level of difficulty is irrelevant, or at least does not have to be relevant. The game can have a number of levels (in terms of this definition) that will have either the same level of difficulty, or a random level of difficulty (some levels are more difficult than others but not in any particular order - I would say MM is actually like this), or a rising level of difficulty, or, theoretically, even a falling level of difficulty, or some other pattern (like for example: a game where you progress through a zoo. First come screens featuring fish: easy level - moderate level - hard level; then come screens featuring birds: easy level - moderate level - hard level; then come screens features animals: easy level - moderate level - hard level, and so on).

Admittedly, it is probably more common to find games where the difficulty level increases as the player progresses through the levels ("Jumping Jack" is a great Spectrum example that comes to mind, one of my non-JSW favourites) than where it goes down. But again, it happens in many games, but it doesn't have to happen to define what a level is.

I would also agree that if someone talks about levels in JSW games, I would probably think about first of all about 'geographical' levels as per the game's map. However, this doesn't have to be the case either. Some games have so many "illogical" room exits (you leave room A and enter room B, but when you go back, instead of re-rentering room A you enter room C, etc.) that it may be very difficult to make a 'geographical' map of them. Or, even if the exits *are* logical, the game map can have such a shape that it would be difficult to talk about levels - which I think we subconsciously identify with the storeys of Willy's original mansion. But not every game map has such a mansion...

Finally, one could also design JSW games that would have 'levels' as defined at the start of this post. A prime example of this would be "Party Willy (JSW128 version)" - you have to collect all of the items in the rooms that are equivalent to the 48K "Party Willy" Part 1 and do the mid-game toilet run to be able to start playing the rooms that are equivalent to the 48K "Party Willy" Part 2. In this sense, the game has two levels (although I wouldn't normally think of them as 'levels', but 'parts', because of the game's name).

My general feeling is that in "Party Willy" you cannot really talk about an increase in difficulty level between the two parts (they are both very difficult). So it's an example of a JSW game that has 'levels', but they're not defined by increased difficulty.

"Jet Set 40-40" is another example of a JSW game that has levels in the sense of having to complete one part of the game to be able to progress to the next part. In this case, the levels are also marked by an increased level of difficulty (the player has to collect four complete sets of items; once the last item of one set has been collected, the items of the next set will appear. The difficulty of the game will increase with each consecutive set of items, as more and more guardians threaten Willy's progress through his mansion and its surroundings).

[DigitalDuck]

2 hours ago, jetsetdanny said:

However, I also relate to the word "level" being used for any kind of game where passing on to the next screen/game map/part of game map, etc. depends on solving the previous level (which may be a screen/game map/part of game map, etc.) successfully.

This is the definition I was thinking of - although levels needn't specifically be completed in a linear order (for example, most Mario games have a fairly open structure where you choose a level, and completing that level grants access to additional levels) they are self-contained challenges which have a clear definition of "completion".

In the case of Manic Miner, completing a cavern gives you a score bonus based on how quickly you completed the room and then loads the next cavern, refreshing your air and providing a new checkpoint to return to when you die. So each cavern definitely counts as a level.

2 hours ago, jetsetdanny said:

Interestingly, in "Double Miner" I would say that there are 10 levels, but 20 rooms/screens/caverns, because the player needs to solve two rooms/screens/caverns before moving on to the next level.

"Double Miner" is also an interesting test for Ian's definition of a cavern, because each pair of rooms consists of a "non-portal room" and a "portal room". You can move between them freely, but you can only progress to the next level of the game (the word 'level' comes in so handy here!) after collecting all of the items in both rooms, which activates the portal. So are both of these rooms caverns or not? I would only say that individually they are not levels; together each pair of rooms creates a level.

This is an interesting one. I'd definitely say 10 levels and 20 rooms, but I'm not sure if I'd count it as 20, 10, or even 0 caverns (the last being the same way I wouldn't consider the whole of Jet Set Willy as one cavern).

2 hours ago, jetsetdanny said:

Finally, one could also design JSW games that would have 'levels' as defined at the start of this post. A prime example of this would be "Party Willy (JSW128 version)" - you have to collect all of the items in the rooms that are equivalent to the 48K "Party Willy" Part 1 and do the mid-game toilet run to be able to start playing the rooms that are equivalent to the 48K "Party Willy" Part 2. In this sense, the game has two levels (although I wouldn't normally think of them as 'levels', but 'parts', because of the game's name).

My general feeling is that in "Party Willy" you cannot really talk about an increase in difficulty level between the two parts (they are both very difficult). So it's an example of a JSW game that has 'levels', but they're not defined by increased difficulty.

"Jet Set 40-40" is another example of a JSW game that has levels in the sense of having to complete one part of the game to be able to progress to the next part. In this case, the levels are also marked by an increased level of difficulty (the player has to collect four complete sets of items; once the last item of one set has been collected, the items of the next set will appear. The difficulty of the game will increase with each consecutive set of items, as more and more guardians threaten Willy's progress through his mansion and its surroundings).

The C16 version of Jet Set Willy II is split into four parts this way as well - although you can load each part at any time and there's no requirement to complete them (in fact I'm not even sure it's possible to complete most of them). Personally I'd refer to these as levels as well, as they're effectively just larger versions of the Double Miner case, but it would be interesting to know how this was referred to in the manual.

The SAM Coupe version of Manic Miner has three sets of caverns, and the title screen asks you to select a "game"...

I'm thinking Deserted Isle is a cavern after all.

[IRF]

Wow! That's quite a lengthy discussion I initiated! Or perhaps - in the spirit of the double entendre inherent in the Willy game - a 'mass debate'! 😜

18 hours ago, DigitalDuck said:

This is the definition I was thinking of - although levels needn't specifically be completed in a linear order (for example, most Mario games have a fairly open structure where you choose a level, and completing that level grants access to additional levels) they are self-contained challenges which have a clear definition of "completion".

Another example is 'Head Over Heels', which starts off linear but then once you reach the Moon base, you can decide which of four worlds to teleport down to and complete first. Then once you've finished all four planets, the ending reverts back to linear. I could talk all day about 'Head Over Heels', it's fantastic! But I would probably veer off-topic.

18 hours ago, DigitalDuck said:

I'm thinking Deserted Isle is a cavern after all.

One thing I'm fairly certain of is that the term 'cavern' doesn't really apply to an outdoor setting, like Deserted Isle!

[jetsetdanny]

The 'cavern' thing, which sounds so weird when applied to Deserted Isle, is all Matthew Smith's fault. 

If "Manic Miner" had had consecutive islands as a setting instead of caverns, today we would be discussing whether a JSW room with a portal for the sole exit should be considered an island! 🤣 

[IRF]

42 minutes ago, jetsetdanny said:

The 'cavern' thing, which sounds so weird when applied to Deserted Isle, is all Matthew Smith's fault. 

If "Manic Miner" had had consecutive islands as a setting instead of caverns, today we would be discussing whether a JSW room with a portal for the sole exit should be considered an island! 🤣 

But then if Willy's first adventure was set on a chain of islands, it wouldn't have been called 'Manic Miner'! It would have been 'Willy the Island Hopper' or something, and he would be wearing a sunhat or visor instead of a miner's helmet.

[DigitalDuck]

15 hours ago, IRF said:

But then if Willy's first adventure was set on a chain of islands, it wouldn't have been called 'Manic Miner'! It would have been 'Willy the Island Hopper' or something, and he would be wearing a sunhat or visor instead of a miner's helmet.

Sounds like a great idea for another game...

[Spider]

On 2/23/2024 at 4:45 PM, jetsetdanny said:

If "Manic Miner" had had consecutive islands as a setting instead of caverns, today we would be discussing whether a JSW room with a portal for the sole exit should be considered an island!

Dynamite Dan II

Dynamite Jet Set 😉 Ideally with an ending this time 😮

[IRF]

9 hours ago, DigitalDuck said:

Sounds like a great idea for another game...

Maybe he's a fisherman, and in the spirit of Matthew's double entendres, it's called 'Willy's Big Tackle'. 😜