MtM

1) "cessation". No spell checks in an assembler. So once it is written it stays as spelt.  ---  Duly changed from "ceasation" to "cessation".

 

2) The penultimate screen was I thought a fairly easy screen. Compared to some of the earlier ones. 

 

3) The problems with adding diagonals is they traverse so much of the screen. That avoiding them is far more difficult. In JSW2 and JSW128Vk/vl/vm the diagonals mainly follow stairs.  It is possible to follow them up or down a stair and jump over them. When the game has no stairs and the diagonal traverses horizontal platforms. The sphere of influence from a diagonal is far greater. Which is why they are used so sparingly.  

 

4) No plans on adding an in game click routine.

    Keyscan routines.  From a brief read of the "NEXT"  specifications.  I would not imagine the Next changes the key scan in any way. 

 

 

If you finished the game in "TRAINER" mode, then all that happened was. The title screen came up, stopping continuation. This is not what happens in "NORMAL" or "EXPERT"..

 

 

I note your dislike of those scrolling messages. - I will write a routine to display the text in fixed normal size and see what that looks like. (for curiosity reasons)  No decisions will be made until I see what it looks like.

 

Addendum

Yuck. is my description of normal sized text on the screen.

I suppose the scrolling messages just make me scratch my head a bit, they seem inconsistent for me with the rest of the game.

Why have scrolling messages on a couple of early screens, then no more throughout the game? I think it makes sense more

on the first screen if there is a single person in the world left who does not realise to pick up the flashing objects and make for

the flashing level portal, so the explanation message works then, but to counterbalance that, this is what the beautiful, precise

precis of an inlay card did, brief scenario and explanation of what to do, so a modern .txt file could likewise do this job. Who can forget

the immortal write up on the JSW inlay - a more beguiling description is hard to imagine. 36 years later it still inspires people to play.

I digress. Just thinking about the scrolling messages, perhaps if the screen sizes changed again throughout the game and more

messages were there to be read that make me get over the consistency idea? Or does that happen on normal mode? Presumably

not. Just my opinion anyway, I hope it is taken in the spirit it is offered.

Your comments about diagonals and stairs makes me think - have I seen stairs in any other MM mod? I can't think of any, but

I am sure there are people here who will correct me if I am wrong about it. Anyway, now I would like to see stairs and

short swings in MM!

It's okay though, as once Dr Broad has written his H* engine these will be standard features of any further MM / JSW game ;-)

As for the Next keypresses, the Next is a quirky machine, it's great for sure and hats off to the team, but not without a few,

well, quirks. I think it could be more of a physical keyboard thing with the Next than an electronic / specification issue.

What the Next really needs is a Next specific version of any of either JSW / MM or preferably a game that rolled them

both into one somehow on the Next. That would be a killer app. Worth crowdfunding.

Just a bit of feedback about Manic Panic for you Norman.

1) there is a spelling mistake in the scrolling message - 'cessation'.

2) Completed it last night on trainer mode which is reasonably easy as you would expect. The penultimate

screen I think based on tennis is a tricky one until you work out which way you need to approach collecting

the objects!

3) I love the fact there is no flicker on any of the sprites, and as you have said before that they a)

pass through objects and b) are masked - it looks fantastic I think. Likewise the odd diagonal.

4) An in game tune would be nice, but I have enjoyed the greater speed too, though occasionally it did not feel

like my keypresses had been read, but that might be a Next thing.

Overall, it is excellent, but I still think the scrolling messages in the early screens feel a bit odd. I would

say they break immersion, but I won't ;-)

Confused by what you mean by "from the Wacky Amoebatrons screen for the second time" :unsure:

 

Its a score for one complete game loop (rollback or snapshots does not matter) ie: first to last screen once only then stop when you re-appear in the first cavern again and note the score. :)

Ah, right, in that case, starting back in Eugene's Lair, for the first time, my score is

36281.

Now, how about a short swing being implemented in MP?

 

Terminology that I am not familiar with. Best guess being a rope.  - A rope is unlikely to appear due to the nature of collision detection. In JSW the sprites check for collision, (as it does in Manic Miner). In Manic Panic the whole logic of collision detection is inverted. The sprites no longer set and check collision, that job is solely done by Willy himself. A rope would need a very special case setting and ....  I see no immediate way of doing it. 

 

Awesome! Will never complete it it's far too hard, but even so

 

JSW128VM has a portal mode. In the portal mode, you do not have lives. You only have a time limit. You can play a screen/multiple screens as many times as you want. Each Death is treated s a reincarnation back to the last portal. The portals act as a save game state. (e.g. the game has an inbuilt save state facility)

Yes, it is a very good feature. The game is _still_ too hard though ;-)

Just on screen 23 on Manic Panic, hoping to maybe complete it tonight. A few times on the Next making snapshots

corrupted the screen at the top, only a couple of times, it was unusual.

Sorry, the short swing is as you assume, i.e. a rope as in JSW, but not as big, more along the lines of the swings

in Turmoil if you have ever seen them. It would be a unique feature to any MM mod.

Okay, here is my current score:-

65043

That was after completing it once and from the Wacky Amoebatrons screen for the second time. I have used snapshots as I have

said so no worries if I am disqualified ;-)

Then it has fulfilled its design brief.

 

From the start the screens have increased in size. The screen after the old central cavern screen, is designed to be a visual shock.

It is certainly different feeling, especially if you have familiarity with the original. I am glad that this is what

you were trying to achieve though. It has a different feel to it now, and is certainly harder.

Standing on Nasties:-

 

 

 

The original file allowed nasties to sap air. This was not the original plan. In the original game file all contact killed Willy as is the normal action. Since this was a BETA file I included the action of air sapping purely because it allowed the screens to be traversed easily without instant death. The one person feedback I received prompted me to expand the air allowance and still permit contact with nasties/sprites and falls to continue as if nothing much had happened and the super generous air supply made movement around easy.( far too easy) 

 

The allowance of standing on a nasty was not a problem originally, when the game did not allow such generous air supplies or death on contact with them. However with the massive amounts of air that is available now, The ability to climb on nasties or stand on nasties needed to be curtailed. I have spent half an hour changing the logic surrounding all the nasties. The change makes nasties un available to stand on. 

I thought that this was a good feature and gave the game an improved feel and increased its playability. If you are an experienced

player of MM then to have things be similar but different when playing is a positive experience and means you learn something

new too. I liked it.

Now, how about a short swing being implemented in MP? Is it even possible? I like being able to play in trainer mode with a good

chance of success to complete a level reasonably easy, but still with consideration given to what now feels like 'health' over 'air'.

I know it is not the right place, but briefly, I have played your JSW128vm recently Norman - my goodness, what a piece of work!

Awesome! Will never complete it it's far too hard, but even so ;-)

I had that same issue. The trick is to keep walking onto the white boxes from off the  right most conveyor. Not the most

intuitive thing to do but it does work. Just part of the dastardly design!

In truth I found this screen a little too cluttered aesthetically.

This is the bug that you're talking about; it only affects the Solar beam cavern:

 

https://skoolkid.github.io/manicminer/reference/bugs.html#nineLivesInTheLight

Yes, that explains it perfectly, thank you! Here I was thinking I had found a bug and all ... ;-)

You can set manual tape control for tape files with some emulators, I do anyway :)

 

If you want more 'AIR' in Solar Power generator without spoiling it too much, use the Emulators options to do a:

 

POKE 64188 , X

 

Set X to be:

 

69 = 30 Seconds extra air

76 = 1 Minute extra air

88 = 2 Minutes extra air

 

Beware of much higher values. These are sane numbers chosen for a reason. :)

 

Note this does cause a bit of odd erm extension onto the next line. To fix this you need to set 40768 to 40799 to 0 (or ignore it)

Thanks for that. At the moment there is no need for more air in Solar Power, as I say, when it reaches 0 you don't die anyway, it just continues.

I will see if it does the same on other screens tonight. I am guessing it is a bug though?

Menagerie, the problem I used to have was the 'top row' timing in that the rightmost guardian I'd jump over or out the way of and hit a fire cell on the roof area. The ways around it are either more careful timing (so its not near a cell when you jump) or you can cheat a bit and jump on the spot a few times to buy a few seconds to get it into a more sane place.

 

I'd forgot to mention Solar Power, the main issue on that is the air limit due to the beam, well that and timing the jumps to get to the top of the screen again!

 

EDIT... Can you use tape (.tap) files ? In that if I post an erm 'patch' you can load it then load in a version of MM ?

Would this be a patch to fix what appears to be a bug on the Solar Power screen, whereby you do not die when your air runs out?

I found this out last night. In truth, not tried it on other screens, that will be tonight when I get chance. I am not quite sure

what you mean about using .tap files though? There is less flexibility with the Next for .tap and .tzx, you cannot stop/start the tape

like you can with emulators, one advantage emulators have. I daresay the Next men will update this at some point.

I could get my snapshot from the Next and load it into a pc emulator and manipulate it that way if necessary?

No prize other than a thank you! :) Oh and your username in the top-x ranking (at least if/when someone gets a higher score)

 

Hardest level,. I'd thought about that a long time ago but its going to vary between players. For a while I used to either be able to do Menagerie first time or it would take a couple of attempts, its not a problem now I have a technique!

 

Regarding Ore Refinery, I find it best to not panic as there's plenty of time/air for what you need to do. I don't have a specific technique for this one, it seems to vary a bit for me!

 

Warehouse is a bit difficult but (if you watch my recording of this level) I don't use the conveyor on that level.

The Menagerie? Really? It has always seemed one of the easiest screens of all to me. Oh well. Solar Power is always hard. I agree that the air level is very generous on the screens though. Right, I better go and try and make some progress on it ...

I don't think its a problem as its not really any difference to using "roll-back" with an rzx recording :)

 

Only thing I will say is stop if/when the game is complete and returns to the first cavern again.

Right-o. I am playing it on my Next so no roll-back possible anyway, just snapshots. Bloody Ore Refinery at the

moment. Is there a prize for top score? ;-)

That makes me think - don't know if it has been done, is there a 'least favourite and why' MM screen thread anywhere?

Probably not needed, but Ore Refinery might be in it, don't like that long conveyor belt!

I plan to write my H* game engine in the 2040s, if I have time between retirement and death.

 

Any games that I might release before then would have to be MM/JSW patches.

Don't wait until then, start it now! It could be a real boost - you have all this expertise available on this forum, these

must be amongst the most specialised programmers in the world here, think of what could be achieved in such a short

space a time? Particularly if everyone put away their own projects to a degree and contributed to this one if you needed

the help.

Out of interest, do you have criteria that your putative H* engine has to meet, such as run in 48k, etc, and if so

could you share them? Apologies for my ignorance, I am sure it is obvious, why 'H*' as a name?

Did you miss that statement.

I guess I did in all the excitement!

Nothing to do today---- so i wrote the music.

Excellent, what is the tune or is it a surprise?

This reminds me of what I once heard, I cannot remember the -exact- term they used for it but it was something like "The Manic Miner Factor"

 

It was about newer (and usually younger) gamers, they would really struggle to understand for some reason the concepts of this type of game, not just due to no "save points" but an example was given:

 

The 'player' would walk into the firecell, the green spiky bush losing a life as you'd expect.

 

Problem was they would then on the next life do it again :huh: :lol: completely unaware*** in blissful ignorance that it was not now inactive (my thought on why they did it again)

 

:unsure: :)

 

*** I say "unaware" rather than "hard of thinking" on this as its not the case I suspect.

This makes me think of playing the excellent re-master of The Bards Tale series last year and this. The dungeons in that game are

unforgiving, like MM & JSW. Things that damage you always do, and you are forced to learn that you have to avoid them, there is

no way to beat them or stop them from damaging you. Perhaps you can read into this a higher level of reality, as there are things

just like in it real life, and there is no way to avoid the damage except to avoid the thing itself (falling off a high building) etc. If you think

of say the original Tomb Raider, which is almost 25 years old now, there was so much forgiving scope in that game, you fell down

high places and did not die, that players didn't really have to be as nervous as maybe we were playing games in the 80s, when it was

a one shot deal, no saves, nothing. I am not saying that was better then, being able to save your game is a very useful feature, and

easily the thing that improved the re-master of the Bards Tale, to the point where it was a lot easier to complete. That and automap.

My replies are in green below.

The biggest versions of JSW in 48k are in descending order

 

JSW2+ around 147 rooms - expanding the game +83 rooms

 

JSW2  around 134 rooms - expanding the game +70 rooms

 

JSW128 VM 128 rooms - expanding the game +64 rooms

 

then the next best is around 75 rooms - expanding the game +11 rooms.

 

JSW 60 rooms designed to store 64 expanding the game -4 rooms

 

Thanks for clearing the 48 k issue up Norman, I appreciate your expertise on this. I will have to go back and finish JSWII+ at some point.

Back to the theme of playing around.

 

 

I wrote the screen copy basics, when I was showing how I would display Perils of Willy. 

 

Those screen copy basics were modified into JSW128 VL demo . And expanded again in JSW128VM

 

Using the screen copy routine that was eventually written for JSW128VM. I expanded the data and added some sprites. I designed and wrote a sprite draw routine, and then added my own sprite movement routines. I then added keyboard routines and fleshed it out with a game control part. All this code is new. It was at this point a few days down the line, that I encountered a major problem in the design of the overall program. Up to this point the movement of graphics and the speed of screen update was ok. However as I added more and more routines it became very noticeable that the stack copy was having a serious problem with regards how it updated the screen. The bigger screen was introducing a phase lag across one raster line and only one raster line. The Glitch this introduced had not been noticed before, and once it was noticed i could not carry on and leave it. At first I puzzled over the nature of the glitch, but eventually I worked out the exact nature of what the problem was. The extra size of the screen was just enough to render the method used as unworkable as far as I was concerned.

 

I wrote several differing versions of the stack copy, and the problem would seemingly not go away with the fastest methods I could write. The problem was not speed but the method of implementation. I could cast aside the method I was using and write a bigger routine that used more data. Or use a true raster line stack copy via the Ytable. The problems become the negation of speed with repeated look ups of data or the vast amount of data and space needed for rolled out stack copies - None of these were to me an option.

 

So after about four/five days from the start of doing these routines and having a working couple of rooms to play. I contemplated pulling the plug. The glitch that I was seeing was not acceptable to me. The update method had a serious flaw, and I was struggling to overcome this flaw.

 

 

By the end of the first week, I was about to give up.

 

 

I decided to scrap the method I was using. My assembler was now littered with dozens of switches and options that implemented various differing methods of stack copy. I tried a new method and copied a lot of macros across and changed the basic method I was implementing. It seemed like every other block of code I had written. I knew the method was not as fast. Yet when I assembled the code and ran it. The glitch had gone. Which proved it was the method implemented originally that was wrong and all the updates and changes could and did not fix it.

 

 

I added a few more rooms and then added game control. By the end of the 2nd week I had more or less what is seen in these demo's.

 

What I have done in the weeks since is refine the code and re-write some of the routines. In some ways I wish I had not written every routine from scratch. It was just easier to say to myself, what do I want. Then write the routine. It seemed pointless using someone else's code that did not do what I wanted. As an example:- name a version of JSW that permits sprites to cross the background. The only answers that I am aware of are JSW2 and JSW2+, the third answer is JSW128VM.  I knew from JSW128VM that it was not an easy change. And I also knew from JSW128Vm that the changes in that version did not go far enough. The whole sprite usage in JSW2 and JSW2+ was sufficiently different, that I could ignore that. 

 

So in the end it was just quicker to write all my own routines.

 

The stoppage at this point concerns implementation of Music. Not something I can do. I can write any number of music routines and play the music in my own routines. But I do need a simple file to implement the music as data, along the lines of    O3fs,o3e,o3e,o3f,o3a

 

Which reads as Octave 3 F sharp, octave 3 E, octave 3 E, Octave 3 F and finally octave 3 A.

 

Given a music score in the fashion written above I can happily write the music routine. 

 

 

 

Asking me to write this file myself is not going to happen soon.

It is very interesting to hear your thoughts on the coding process. Has anyone ever just written a new engine for making MM & JSW

games from the start, so that in theory it would benefit from all the refinements that have been made over the years, rather than keep

patching or altering the original code? Or is the JSW128 engine that?

Are you saying Normal that you cannot prepare the music in the format you say above? Have you got a tune in mind?

One thing I am pleased to see is the 'fall off the platform' effect that plagues JSW2 (Spectrum) and MM + JSW (Amstrad) is thankfully not present! :)

 

By this I mean if you stand M.W at the far end of a platform and press jump then attempt to move left/right you simply fall off rather than jump in that direction. The Spectrum version of JSW1 and MM behave more sanely (imo) in that regard. Lost far too many lives in JSW2 by this.

 

Realise the answer is simply to stand one frame in then operate the controls but with timing sometimes critical its not always easy to retrain my mind for this.

 

As I say thankful to see this 'effect' is not present. Although I've not looked into the cause it seems almost as if the left/right vs jump keys are tested in the opposite order.

That is a very good point, and reminds me of the frustration of playing JSWII to completion earlier this year!

There are always copyright issues with MM/JSW. We should really be releasing our games as patches against the originals, or writing our own game engines from scratch.

Ah, so maybe no-one has written a complete engine from the beginning then? Yet it seems to me like there are several people on here

who are more than capable of doing that, though I guess real life gets in the way some times. Would copyright these days not have

reverted back to the original author in absence of a liquid concern holding the copyrights? Didn't Elite plan to release a new version

in some way, I know they had a modded version from 1985 they were on about releasing, but it all seemed to go very quiet and has

been since.

Sorry if the size of this post breaks the forum rules :-0

I have a score coming up, so please keep it open. Mind you, it will involve me using snapshots, or is that not allowed?

The only released mod of JSWII - if you can call it that - is John Elliott's "Jet Set Willy 2: Super Pre-School Edition". The room "Shouldn't this be the Attic?" [039] was the first completely edited new room in a game using the JSW2 game engine since the original JSWII. 

Thanks for this, that is interesting, I did check your site but when I saw no entries for JSWII never thought of looking elsewhere.

I stand corrected!

Is the JSWII engine more difficult to work with than the original MM & JSW engines? I have read that the room data is not compressed/

encrypted in JSW so it is easy to edit etc., but from what I have read about JSWII, particularly on

http://www.jdawiseman.com/papers/games/jsw2/jsw2_updated.html

it looks like the author of JSWII is still an active and very able programmer, and maybe JSWII reflects this, making it harder to edit or use

the engine? Are there possible copyright issues?

Just wondered, mainly because so far as I can tell JSWII is the biggest of all the JSW games room wise, or am I wrong about

that too? I would love to see something on that scale again anyway, with mainly easy screens (!) Or skill levels like Manic Panic.

Keep on plodding Norman!

Apologies for my ignorance, have you ever used the JSWII engine for any of your games, or just the MM engine?

In fact thinking about it I cannot think of too many modded versions of JSWII. I know that the original author Derrick

Rowson has released an updated version in 2016, but am struggling to remember playing any modded versions

of it - am I wrong? No, actually, just checked on https://jswcentral.org/list.html#ListofJSWIIgames

there do not appear to be any JSWII mods, thought that was the case.

What is your overall goal for Manic Panic?

Thanks for the response, really appreciated.

I am working my way through the game level by level when I get chance, think I am on level 13 at the moment, just with making

snapshots etc on the Next. I did note that last night there was no way to get the music back on in game, unless I am imagining

it?

The masking graphics I like a lot, especially the Willy sprite, it looks so much better and clearer in terms of gameplay.

Yes, I meant 'Greek urns' too, instead of flowerpots. For that matter I have Manic 40 too, I must see where I am up to with

that as well. I applaud your efforts, sir - long may they continue! You are making a real contribution to a seminal and now

legendary game series; it has changed people's lives, which may sound a little grandiose but there is evidence to support it.

Version beta 3.

 

 

Not changed a great deal, that can be seen. But underneath the exterior is a lot of code change. 

 

This looks pretty much the same as before. Only casual difference would be that on loading it now displays the word "Trainer" on the title screen. Plus a change in the scrolling message about the version and the date.

 

Game changes.

 

While the title screen is displayed , pressing the keyboard letter "T" will change the word "Trainer" to "Normal", another press of "T" will change the word "Normal" to "Expert". And yet another press will change the "Expert" back to the original wording of "trainer".

 

Those three words are describing the game play.   The graphics of each room will not be changed by the differing level of play but other changes will take place.

 

 

1) trainer mode: Here the oxygen level is set to full, and the game depletes the oxygen counter very slowly. The number of sprites in a room is reduced by two. The game can not be completed in this mode.

 

2) Normal mode. Here the oxygen level is set to a level where the room can be completed at a casual pace. The oxygen depletes a lot faster. The number of sprites in a room is reduced by 1

 

3) Expert mode. Here the oxygen level is set to a level where the room can be completed at a brisk pace. The rate of oxygen depletion is very fast, Now all contacts with sprites/baddies/fall etc will result in Willies demise.

 

Each mode has its own high score. The trainer mode will give excessive score due to the remaining oxygen left at the end of each cavern.

 

 

The above is an outline of what is intended.... The rooms themselves have not be fully defined. in terms of graphics/sprites/events/ and the oxygen level

 

 

At present around 25 screens:- that, like every other aspect, is subject to change.

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Addendum:-

 

The size of the file is a good indicator of how much ram is set aside for those giant screens in memory. The real screen is 6656 in size. For this game variant we also have a Working screen and a Master screen. Those 3 screens are using 19968 bytes of memory.  So nearly 20k is dedicated at the start for game screens, leaving just 28k from the 48k for the program and all its data. I am at present at the point where I  need more memory to do the things I want. I will probably do a major memory reconfiguration and data compression. (something that will not be seen)

 

 

 

I had a good session playing this last night, and I daresay I will again tonight.

I really like it, the graphics just seem eye-popping on a 4k monitor that I have my Next connected to, it

just looks wonderfully colourful.

In terms of what you say above, can the game be completed on 'normal'? I assume so, so apologies

if that is a daft question.

I note too that the level designs are to be found in some of your other MM based games, the flowerpots

etc. The diagonal moving sprites really break things up too aesthetically as well as gameplay wise - unless

that is from a different version of MM I have played, there are so many, if so then sorry :-)

I re-read what I had written above about the screen design in Perils of Willy earlier in the thread, and realise that it is not applicable

here in a way because those screens themselves were designed originally back in the 80s when that game

first came out, so have not been too altered in terms of difficulty compared to the modern mods of JSW

and MM that can be so hard.

Personally I think the system you have employed here is excellent and caters for everyone. I am not sure

what the scrolling messages add to the early screens that a static message like a room name wouldn't add?

I do like too in later screens where the whole screen apart from the bottom 2 lines are deployed as gaming area,

something different from MM but it looks really good visually and gives more room for design.

As for the size of the memory used above, is producing a 128k version a possibility?

Hope that this is constructive for you.

I have downloaded the 10CC version (I am a huge fan of 10cc!) so will give that a go too.

I think that the different versions is a fair compromise for people with Manic Panic, I am looking forward to its next

release.

Has anyone ever considered the idea of a crowdfunded official Jet Set Willy III? With the ability on this forum, and the very

outside chance of getting Matthew Smith's blessing if not contribution too, it might be a goer? Just a pipe dream...

I have downloaded and played Manic Panic on my Next - and for that matter many of the

remakes mentioned around here.

I really like it. Here is some feedback though, which is applicable to many

recent MM / JSW clones.

I find them _all_ far too hard, especially at first, to be as enjoyable as they deserve. I realise that I am perhaps

not the master MM / JSW player here compared to the rest of you, but their difficultly level puts

me off playing. I get enjoyment from exploring in the MM/JSW universe.

Please take that in the spirit it is intended. I have finished MM & JSW without pokes, albeit with snapshots

on emulators, so I am not completely useless. I appreciate all your efforts with these games, I know you

have all slaved over writing them over many years, I do love them and thank you for your efforts. I would just

like something with the difficultly level of the original MM or JSW though. Even JSWII gets overly hard in places,

and I battled to finish that without pokes and did. How about something a bit more pastoral?

I know that you all no doubt relish the challenge of very hard MM / JSW remakes. As a good example, although

I have not finished it yet, I thought that the recent Perils of Willy struck a good balance between difficulty and enjoyment

so far, I am on level 14 I think.

I hope that helps, not criticism at all, please continue with your efforts, I will enjoy seeing how it turns out.