IRF

I'm one step ahead of you there! If you have ventured out to collect the item in 'Under the MegaTree' on the way down the MegaTree [e.g. to take advantage of the time saving from having kamikazed a life in 'Out on a Limb'] - as per my suggested schedule about ten posts back - then the saw is well out of the way at the point when you jump through the ramp in 'Foot of MegaTree', so in that scenario the saw doesn't cause any delay in proceeding down to floor level and walking out to the right. 🙂

You may well be right in general to be sceptical about the potential time saving from a 'MegaTree then Off Licence' route. However, I've just checked, and after walking into Foot of MegaTree from the bottom-right (as if returning back from the Offy), Willy only has to wait for 7 time-frames before he can walk directly behind the saw, and then do a sideways (leftwards) jump over the saw to exit to The Drive. 7 frames is less than the time it takes to collect the Bathroom tap at the start of the game...

I don't particularly dislike the walk to the Off Licence - I'm just trying to apply the logic you set out (as to how the game runs faster when you have fewer lives left) to that long walk out and back. Here's a crude attempt at the maths/science, in broad brush strokes (i.e. ignoring horizontal deviations when moving vertically, and vertical deviations when moving horizontally): Climbing up the MegaTree involves going up through three rooms (the Tree occupies three levels), each of which entails ascending by 13 character rows, and then back down again. Whereas walking to the Off Licence involves traversing the bottom of three-and-a-half rooms (the right half of 'At the Foot...', 'Under the MegaTree', 'The Bridge', and 'The Off Licence'), each of which entails passing through 30 character columns, and then back again. Now, jumping up is a slower process than walking horizontally, because Willy ascends higher than the platform he is about to land on, and then drops down a bit before he can make the next jump. (N.B. the maths is a bit complicated here - jumping up by two rows is more efficient than a jump which only takes you one row higher). But on the other hand, when it comes to dropping back down the Tree, falling is quicker than walking horizontally (when falling you descend by half a character row per frame, whereas walking horizontally Willy passes through a quarter of a character column per frame). So, taking all of that into account, it seems to me that: - climbing the MegaTree first (kamikazeing once), and then doing the Off Licence journey with one less life; would have a bigger net time saving than: - doing the Off Licence journey first (kamikazeing in there), and then climbing the MegaTree with one less life. ?

I realised that, which is what led me on to consider whether doing the full length of Foot of MegaTree at ground floor level, from right to left, might minimise the waiting around for the saw. (And it turns out that it does reduce the delay caused by the saw compared with going from top-right to bottom-left of Foot of MegaTree.) And that in turn led me to wonder about the benefits of climbing up the MegaTree before venturing to the Off Licence (the subject of my next post after the one you've just quoted).

I think it's worth it. The exercise has revealed some very neat and nifty manoeuvres which I've managed to replicate myself - first in Manic Miner, and now in JSW. 😀

In a similar vein, if you are kamikazeing a life somewhere in the MegaTree (whether it be in Out on a Limb, Under the MegaTree or Cuckoo's Nest), then wouldn't it make more sense to do that before walking all the way to the Off Licence? So that the traverse along the ground level of the equivalent of seven rooms - from the base of the MegaTree to the far end of the Off Licence, and all the way back again - is done with one less life needing to be printed on the status bar? Putting all of the above thoughts together, how about this for a quicker route through the 'garden' area (starting just after emerging from 'Under the Drive' into 'The Drive'): The Drive At the Foot of the MegaTree [no need to collect the items yet, you'll have to jump through their location on the way back anyway in order to get over the purple saw - unless you think that the processing of drawing them all for longer slows down the game perceptibly?] Inside the MegaTrunk Cuckoo's Nest Inside the MegaTrunk Tree Top Out on a Limb - triple-hop, then collect both items in one kamikaze jump [or vertical jump for the upper item first if you don't want to risk missing it], respawn, then drop down into... On a Branch over the Drive Inside the MegaTrunk At the Foot of the MegaTree - exit upper right Under the MegaTree (upper level) At the Foot of the MegaTree - enter upper right, exit lower right Under the MegaTree (lower level) The Bridge The Off Licence - kamikaze after collecting all the items The Bridge Under the MegaTree (lower level) At the Foot of the MegaTree - you have to wait a few frames for the saw to move away, but then jumping over the saw you can collect two of the three items in the same jump, then collect the final (leftmost) item in a jump out to The Drive (unless you already collected the leftmost item jumping in from The Drive at the start - but that's risky as you can end up in an Infinite Death Scenario if you hit the Fire cells) The Drive I realise that would mean climbing the MegaTree with one more life remaining compared with doing the Off Licence first, but surely the time saving from doing the Off Licence after the MegaTree should be greater, because the rooms are all twice as wide as they are long? It might be worth doing an experiment by speedrunning the above sequence (starting with two remaining lives/music off), and see how it compares with the timing of the equivalent run out from The Drive and back in your previous best performance video?

But since the triple-hop in Out on a Limb would save you about 12 seconds (by my reckoning), I think it should more than outweigh those factors? Another thought: since both Under the MegaTree and Cuckoo's Nest are out-and-back journeys from the centre of the MegaTrunk, you could do one or both of them on the way back down the MegaTree, thereby speeding them up after having lost a life in Out on a Limb? EDIT: Actually, that might mess up the timings with the guardians in Inside the MegaTrunk (because if you try to climb that room from below, you have to wait around for the red skull to get out of the way; whereas if you come back in from Cuckoo's Nest then by the time you've hopped over the green bird, the skull has already got out of the way so you can climb straight up). But I'm fairly sure it's true of the out-and-back to Under the MegaTree - there aren't any guardians in either the core or the right-hand side of At the Foot of the MegaTree, so venturing out to Under the MegaTree and back should be just as easy on the way down the MegaTree as on the way up?

Further to the above comment (from the topic discussing crem's JSW algorithm), I've just completed 'Out on a Limb' in less than one in-game minute - see the attached RZX recording. In 'real-world' time, it took 21 seconds from entering 'Out on a Limb' up to the moment when Willy dropped down into 'On a Branch over the Drive'. That compares with 28 seconds in my previous attempt - see RZX attached to this post by RuffledBrick: https://jswmm.co.uk/topic/569-jet-set-willy-speedrunning-videos/?do=findComment&comment=12737 (In both cases, Willy still had all his spare lives and the in-game music was playing.) So that's a 25% time saving compared with my previous effort. ** Extrapolating that to RB's videos (as embedded in the post at the link below) - in which Willy had no spare lives and the music wasn't playing (and RB's kamikaze efforts were more efficient than my previous attempt, though obviously not as efficient as the 'triple jump' in my latest video) - I reckon the saving provided by a very efficient kamikaze route through 'Out on a Limb' could be about 11-12 seconds of 'real world' time, compared with the non-sacrificial route. It also looks *much* cooler!! https://jswmm.co.uk/topic/569-jet-set-willy-speedrunning-videos/?do=findComment&comment=12739 Faster Out on a Limb Route with Kamikaze.rzx

Actually, there's only about 12 seconds' worth of air in the cavern! So I can only imagine that you used '6031769' to teleport into the next cavern? EDIT: It's just occurred to me that you might not have been referring to 10 seconds of 'real world time'. Did you finish the cavern with a score of 110 points? (i.e. 10 units of air left = 10 points, plus 100 points for the item?)

Could you post a recording, please?

EDIT: I've shifted this post over onto RuffledBrick's Speedrunning topic, as it seemed to be more pertinent there (and less of a potential distraction from the details of crem's algorithm).

I only really made the Flying Pig suggestion in jest! Whilst I imagine that, as you say, a Miner Willy version complete with hard hat/headlamp is probably something he's thinking of doing anyway.

It looks great! A Miner Willy one would make a good gift for a caving enthusiast (though I'm not sure I'd rely on it solely to find your way around a real cavern!) The pigs in the background of your photo made me wonder if the Flying Pig sprite would fit in the lamp? It would probably be too wide for the frame though - and thinking about it, that's the playing sprite in The Nightmare Room so it might give you nightmares! 😜

The only scenario I can think of where the jump/fall counters matter, once Willy has attached to a rope, is if you use the WRITETYPER teleport function to exit to a room without a rope. Strange things can happen if you do that!

It depends whether Willy was jumping/falling at the moment when he becomes entangled on the rope: - If he's walking along (e.g. in the Swimming Pool) and the rope touches him, then he will end up on the rope and the Airborne Status Indicator (#85D1) will still be set at zero; - If he jumps up onto the rope, then #85D1 will hold and retain the value #01; - If he falls down and touches the rope (e.g. dropping out of the Orangery into the Swimming Pool), then #85D1 will have a value somewhere in the range #02-#0F. The value of #85D1 is only updated when Willy departs from the rope: - If he jumps off the rope, it is set to #01; - If he climbs down and drops off the bottom segment, it is reset to zero; - If he climbs up to the top, to emerge in the room above, then #85D1 is also reset to zero (the same as if he jumps up into the room above). Note that the manoeuvre you refer to in 'On the Roof' is only possible by jumping off the rope when it is at or near the widest deviation of its swing from the centre.

Was there a similar amount of content on the darnkitty site for Manic Miner, that could also be worth preserving for posterity?

It's not quite that simple. The rope animation frame counter is incremented/decremented by 2 - except when it's close to its equilibrium position (i.e. hanging vertically), where it swings faster (the animation variable is incremented/decremented by 4). I've just watched a rope swinging whilst keeping the A (pause) key depressed, stabbing at the '1' (non-movement) key, and counting the rope's animation frame-by-frame, and I think it takes 90 frames for each there-and-back swing of the rope.

If my interpretation is right that you're referring there to jumping into a new room, rather than walking into it, I would just point out that in most circumstances that's an unwise manouevre, as Willy can end up in an Infinite Death cycle...

In that case, in order to get the fastest in-game time, I think you should probably climb up the Bathroom ramp as soon as you've collected the tap. *** Incidentally, it would be useful to report the total number of frames that the game runs for, as the in-game completion time only tells you how you've done to the nearest 'minute' (a 'minute' on the on-screen clock equates to 256 'ticks'/passes through the Main Loop). Furthermore, the 'tick' counter variable (#85CB) is reset to zero as soon as you reach the toilet at the end of the toilet run, so you would need to interrogate the value of #85CB in the frame immediately prior to him reaching the toilet.

Yes, the music on/off button can be pressed simultaneously with a movement key. But I was referring to the need to 'unpress' ENTER and then repress it if you want to turn the music off at the start of a game (there is a keypress flag that means if you keep ENTER pressed at the start of a game, then it won't toggle the music off until you let go of ENTER and then repress it). But starting the game, switching the music off, abandoning that game and restarting another (so the music is already switched off at the start of the game) is an even simpler way of achieving the same thing.

Are you going for the fastest 'real world' completion time, or the earliest finish according to the on-screen clock (i.e. the fewest number of frames/ticks/passes through the Main Loop)? The merits of climbing up the Bathroom ramp at the start of the game, in order to access the Top Landing item, were discussed at an earlier stage (around the time that RuffledBricks first posted his speedruning video), and I think the consensus emerged that that early decision could have a bearing on the completion time, depending on what you're trying to achieve. If it's the earliest finish according to the on-screen clock (fewest frames), then it stands to reason that you should collect the Top Landing item as the second item (after the Bathroom tap), so that Willy isn't wasting frames walking back into the Bathroom at the end of the game to access the ramp up to the upper levels of Top Landing. If it's the fastest real world completion time, then RB pointed out that the game runs faster at the end (assuming you've used up all your spare lives by that point 'kamikazeing' items), because the execution of the drawing of spare lives on the status bar during each frame, slows down the game to a degree which is perceptible over the course of a whole game. So the fact that Willy has to take a longer route (more frames) to collect the Top Landing item at the end, is outweighed by the fact that the game runs quicker at that point if you haven't got any spare lives left. **** Incidentally, if it's the fastest real world completion that you are trying to achieve via your algorithm, then you would need to get it to release and then press 'ENTER' in the first two frames of the game, in order to turn off the in-game music. Because the playing of the in-game tune further slows down the running of the game.

I can't think of a way in which #8C01 is bypassed when losing a life. When you've observed it happen, does the program bypass the 'fade to black' screen effect? If so, maybe a bug in your code means that you have an entry point into the routine at #8C33?

Thanks for restoring all the missing posts, Andy! You've done a really good job of it! 🙂

I think your system of nomenclature is, by and large, a fair reflection of the amount of effort and inventiveness that has gone into each project, Danny. 🙂

Well, it was designed that way, so that's a relief!