Manic Miner in 48k with 40 rooms

[IRF]

8 hours ago, jetsetdanny said:

I've modified the wording on JSW Central somewhat. "Mercinary-Kongs on Hire Perches" is not 100% new - it uses the graphics from the corresponding room in LiganTM's game, while the rest of its design (the layout, the switches, etc.)

I think it's more accurate to say that both Ligan's 'The Collapsed Plains' and Norman Sword's 'Mercinary Kongs...' use the graphics from 'The Menagerie' in original Manic Miner.     EDIT: I see that Norman Sword has just made essentially the same point and our posts have crossed.

And this cavern is different from the 19 other new caverns in M40M in the sense that all the other new caverns retain the cavern names from Ligan's game, whereas this one has an entirely new name.

[IRF]

1 hour ago, Norman Sword said:

Correction on the scope of editing done in LIgan's caverns.
Ligans edit of the original Manic Miner
1) the sprites are not moved or recoloured. The only exception is Eugene Which is a new definition.  2) the graphics for platforms/walls are 99% the original graphics. 3) some rooms/caverns change the graphic definition of the keys/items. 3) the start position in a few rooms/caverns is changed. 4) The graphic colours are not changed 5) The border colour is not changed.  There might be exceptions to the above but the exceptions are trivial.

Indeed, it hadn't occurred to me before but some details like the conveyors are in exactly the same place (and run in the same direction). So where I had thought that, for example, the conveyor in The VAT was cunning placed to trap an uncareful Willy, it is actually the room elements surrounding the conveyor that have been cunningly placed (the overhead wall/crumblies underneath the conveyor/Fire cell on the conveyor to the left) around the pre-existing conveyor.

[jetsetdanny]

15 hours ago, IRF said:

I think it's more accurate to say that both Ligan's 'The Collapsed Plains' and Norman Sword's 'Mercinary Kongs...' use the graphics from 'The Menagerie' in original Manic Miner.     EDIT: I see that Norman Sword has just made essentially the same point and our posts have crossed.

It's a matter of perspective. If I compare "Manic 40 Miner" to "Manic Miner: Back to the Mine", the only thing that matters is whether a given element in the former is the same as in the latter or not. Where it originated from in the latter is of no importance to what I'm considering.

My wording that "Mercinary-Kongs on Hire Perches" is not 100% new - it uses the graphics from the corresponding room in LiganTM's game" was written in this context. I stand by it and I'm not changing it, but, fortunately, it is only written on this forum, not on JSW Central (where I would be more willing to change things that may be controversial).

The text on JSW Central does not go into this kind of detail, it just reads that

The following 20 caverns are rooms from LiganTM's 2018 game Manic Miner: Back to the Mine modified to various extent (with the exception of "Mercinary-Kongs on Hire Perches" [23], which is a new room).

I think this statement is essentially true and does not need any further modification. Should anyone here present know of any reason that it should be modified, speak now or forever hold your peace 🙂 .

P.S. Good point about the room name of room 23 being different, Ian!

[jetsetdanny]

16 hours ago, Norman Sword said:

Mercinary Kongs thus uses the graphics as provided by Matthew in the corresponding room. There are no Ligan graphics to use or in use.

It's an academic discussion, but...

I did not say "Mercinary Kongs" used LiganTM graphics. I said it used the graphics from the corresponding room in LiganTM's game. There is a difference, I believe.

There ARE some graphics in LiganTM's game, so, if somebody uses them, they use graphics FROM LiganTM's game. This does not automatically and explicitly mean that LiganTM is their author.

Furthermore, I imagine this is exactly what happened in real life. When you were creating "Manic 40 Miner", Norman Sword, I imagine that, for the second set of caverns, you copied and modified the rooms from "MM: Back to the Mine". So, when you created  "Mercinary Kongs" (and an excellent room it is!), you used the graphics from the corresponding room in "MM: Back to the Mine" (I would be very surprised if you were copying data from LiganTM's game and suddenly, for this particular room only, you switched to the original MM and copied some data from there). So, if the above assumption is correct, you DID use the graphics FROM LiganTM's game.

The only element of my statement that could be questioned would be whether or not "MM: Back to the Mine" is "LiganTM's game". Of course an argument can be made that Matthew Smith is a co-author of the game, because of the many elements from the original MM that LiganTM's game uses. Yes, this is obviously correct, the way these MM and JSW games are usually credited IS a simplification, because Matthew Smith IS a co-author of all of the games that use his game engine, or a modified game engine that uses part of his game engine, not to mention his graphics, etc. But this, I believe, is generally understood and not mentioned explicitly, just expressed from time to time through the recognition of Matthew's godlike status 😄 (to quote an example off the top of my head: room 63 "In the Presence of The Almighty!" from Lee Tatlock's "Willy vs The Vampire Lord", with "MATT SMITH" written in large flashing letters across the screen).

So I believe my statement is correct in itself and there is no reason to change it. It contains correct information, which is also sufficient in the context of comparing "Manic 40 Miner" and "Manic Miner: Back to the Mine", as explained in my previous post.

IF the information were to be expanded beyond that context, the sentence could read:

"Mercinary-Kongs on Hire Perches" is not 100% new - it uses Matthew Smith's graphics from the corresponding room in LiganTM's game.

[Norman Sword]

How I wrote Manic 40 Miner.  I used the original sprite data (because the data is not changed) I used the original graphic tile data from Matthew's game (edited and reformated), and I might have added 2 new graphics which are the TOTAL that Ligan's game has that are different (I would need to further investigate that statement). As I keep on stating the graphics in Ligans game are 99% Matthews. If I redraw the room plan, I draw the room using a combination of Matthew's graphics and my own and those two graphics. All  those new graphics that you are so adamant about are not used, because they do not exist. So where from my perspective is Ligan contributing to the graphics, if those 2 extra graphics are not used.

Code wise I did not grab any data from the Ligan version. I drew the room plans from visual inspection. Hence why the conveyors were wrong.  The room/cavern data for the first 20 rooms/caverns (Matthew's)  was edited into a new format. Then the Basic room/cavern data  (graphics and sprite positions) was duplicated from the first 20 rooms(Matthew's rooms). There being no need to use any other data because it mainly, did not change. The code was a test of a concept. The room plan of the last 20 rooms was based on Ligan's, and I mention this in the scrolling message. The sprites and graphics are duplicated from Matthew's game. In the case of the sprites there is one change in Ligan's version. That change is the sprite graphics for Eugene. That sprite graphic was not copied, and again Matthew's version is used.

So your summary of how you think I wrote Manic 40 Miner and the reality is different.  No sprite data was needed. No Graphic tile data was needed. I  duplicated the original 20 rooms/caverns of sprite paths/keys/portals/designated tiles/colours to create 40 rooms in data. The room/cavern plan was typed in from visual inspection. That means I simply typed out the room/cavern plan like this (an example below). At a later date I added the two differing graphics (Ligans). Any other graphics I had drawn were also added. The next set of differing graphics are taken from the Software Projects version of the game (Matthew's graphics again) 

 defb #3B,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#BB,#B3
 defb #30,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#60,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#03
 defb #30,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#03
 defb #30,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#0C,#DC,#DC,#DC,#D0,#00,#03
 defb #30,#00,#00,#AE,#CD,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#60,#00,#03
 defb #30,#02,#22,#30,#00,#0C,#DC,#DE,#CD,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#0C,#13
 defb #30,#06,#00,#30,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#03
 defb #30,#00,#00,#3E,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#13
 defb #30,#00,#00,#30,#00,#00,#22,#22,#00,#00,#02,#22,#20,#00,#00,#03
 defb #32,#20,#00,#3E,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#60,#00,#E0,#03
 defb #38,#88,#00,#36,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#03
 defb #30,#00,#22,#30,#00,#00,#10,#00,#00,#A0,#00,#00,#00,#00,#0E,#13
 defb #30,#00,#00,#A0,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#30,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#03
 defb #30,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#0A,#30,#00,#00,#00,#CD,#00,#03
 defb #30,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#03,#30,#00,#00,#00,#00,#00,#03
 defb #3B,#BB,#BB,#BC,#DE,#CD,#EE,#CD,#E3,#3A,#CD,#CD,#CD,#CD,#CD,#E3

It does not take long to draw the rooms plan in such a way.
I typed out the room/cavern plan for all 40 of the caverns. This being necessitated by the differing method of storage from the original.

To reiterate. Ligan's change from Matthew's version does NOT change the graphics, the sprites  or even change the conveyors. The full extent of sprite change was editing Eugenes sprite graphics (which I do not use). The sprite paths are identical. The room graphics are 99% the original room graphics with the same colours and the same graphics. (with the exception of those tiles) The border colour stays the same, the conveyors stay the same. The portals stay the same.  ---- The main difference is the room/cavern plan, and the position of each caverns keys.

Now a look at those caverns . The first 10 caverns by Matthew and the first 10 caverns by Ligan. Theses screen shots are from Mainic Miner and Ligan's Version. They are NOT taken from Manic 40 Miner.  The next 10 caverns are similar.



Left side Matthew's room/cavern and graphics Right side is Ligans room/cavern using Matthew's graphics. (same graphics/graphic colours/sprites/sprite path/sprite colour/border colour/conveyor position/conveyor size/ conveyor direction/portal/portal colour/ portal position) The exceptions are few.

 

 

Addendum --- I have missed out the VAT (accidentally )


 

Edited September 20, 2021 by Norman Sword
Clarification. spelling/grammar/punctuation/ommisions

[jetsetdanny]

Thanks for this detailed description, Norman Sword - it's very interesting and informative and I appreciate it! 👍

[Norman Sword]

A post (elsewhere) about quirks in the game engine. (Manic Miner)

As an illustration of quirks . Here I have modified one room - and added a quirk. Which is displayed in Manic 40 Miner in another room. (it should aslo duplicate on Manic Miner) Here The only interest is the first room, using a quirk that allows the room to be completed.

NOTE no other room is different (intentionally) (No editor in this version) and not intended to be a different game version. This is a demonstration of one quirk. 

m40mquirk2.sna

Edited September 26, 2021 by Norman Sword
Clarification.

[jetsetdanny]

A good illustration of a great quirk! 👍

[IRF]

Known in the trade as an example of an 'Innocent-Looking Block', I believe?

[Spider]

Pavero's excellent maps site has produced a screenshot "map" of each cavern of this wonderful game.

"Spoilered" for those who do not wish to see it:

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Spider
Replaced map with corrected title screen version