MM/JSW site listing every clone of MM & JSW? Let´s list the missing ones.

[Jet Set Willie]

I can´t find a MM/JSW site with every MM/JSW clone on every machine, ones with the looks and behaviour near enough to be accepted as clones. It´s 2023, surely there should have been time to ask, find and list them? 😉

We could start now, as long as we are still living. 🙂Let´s use this topic to list here the ones missing from MM/JSW sites. Moderators could then list them to their sites. I am not expecting this to be done quickly, just let the time pass and people occasionally fill this topic. Perhaps some of the moderators here could edit this first post to add the later listed games to this first post, so any moderator from any other MM/JSW sites could easily find all the "missing" games and list them. MM/JSW lovers can find them easily then. 🥰

 

Commodore 64

The Bear Essentials - a homebrew MM clone with JSW´ish possibility to freely enter neighbouring rooms.

Plug It - an MM clone

MSX

Caverns of Titan - a homebrew MM clone

[Spider]

ZX > https://jswcentral.org/othergames.html

[Jet Set Willie]

JSW Remakes lists some for different machines, but even that list is incomplete.

[Spider]

I don't think there will be a ready made list as you said there was not.

There is (afaik) at least one or two Amstrad remakes but they use the standard MM game apart from the first cavern or two being edited. Not sure if those would count.

[jetsetdanny]

The idea is certainly interesting and challenging. Determining whether something is a "clone" of MM or JSW may be tricky (how similar does the game have to be in order to be considered that?).

My JSW Central website aims to list every single gamma-released MM and JSW game for the Spectrum, as well as minor versions of the original games. Non-Spectrum games are beyond its scope of interest and will not be part of it in the foreseeable future. As described here, whether a game is defined, or not, as a 'Willy game' for the purposes of JSW Central depends mainly on the game engine it uses. The only exception to the rule are games using game engines other than the several well-defined categories, but which for various reasons are without any doubt 'Willy games'.

I would suspect that almost all of the ZX Spectrum games included in the 'Complete list of MM and JSW games' on JSW Central should be incorporated into the hypothetical all-encompassing all-platform list you've described. "Almost all", because there is one exception: my "Willy Games: The First 30 Years Quiz" IS a Willy game by the JSW Central definition - because it uses the JSW64 game engine - but in fact it's not a platformer, but a multiple-choice quiz (in which the ingenious use of the game engine is part of the tribute to the whole phenomenon of Willy games). So it would certainly not fit on any list of JSW clones.

JSW Central also lists, as separate lists, "Versions and minor mods of the original Manic Miner" and "Versions and minor mods of the original Jet Set Willy". These are creations I do not classify as "new games", but as "versions" and "minor mods" of the original games (only), and I do feel very strongly about making this distinction, because it's often blurred on general ("non-MM/JSW-specialised") Spectrum websites, to the detriment of common sense and clarity of what we are talking about. It would have to be an arbitrary decision by whoever was making the all-encompassing list if they would want to include any of these entries.

Section I. "Games inspired by and/or similar to MM or JSW" on the "Games of MM and JSW interest" page, which Andy (Spider) pointed to (thank you!), is a half-hearted attempt to create a list of Spectrum games that may be particularly enjoyable to people who like MM/JSW because of their similarity. It's grossly underdeveloped, and will unfortunately remain so in the foreseeable future, because developing it is very low on my priority list. However, IF a list of Spectrum games similar to/inspired by/amounting to clones of MM/JSW is developed elsewhere (like on this forum by following Jet Set Willie's idea), I would be happy to take advantage of it in the future and use it to add new entries to the "Games of MM and JSW interest" list on JSW Central.

As for the lists on new MM/JSW games and minor versions on JSW Central, to the best of my knowledge they are currently complete, with the exception of two "versions/minor mods of the original Manic Miner" and a sub-version of one of them that have been around for over a year now, but I haven't got down to creating separate pages for them yet (they are Allan Turvery's "Manic Miner: Trick or Treat" and its 'Silver Shamrock' variant plus his "Manic Miner Presto"). I will include them in the list and create separate pages for them one day. If someone knows of anything else that is missing, please let me know!

[MtM]

A list of _all_ known MM & JSW games, both official and unofficial that covers all formats would be an interesting and useful list to have.

 

I think some criteria might be helpful, either they are official versions of the games, such as the Amiga version of Jet Set Willy, an official version

albeit if memory serves it was JSW II really and scrolled, but it was still an official release, so part of the 'Canon'. For that matter JSW II is an

official game, but not the original engine etc.

 

Any 'home-brew' that uses an engine from the original could count as an unofficial version? This could include

Danny's quiz game for me anyway, if it uses the engine.

 

I note on Danny's list there are titles such as 'Roller Coaster' by Elite, which are technically at least nothing

to do with JSW or MM, other than having some kind of similarity in appearance, game play etc. Maybe they

are a third category, such as 'unofficial clones / inspired by' etc?

 

Perhaps a fourth category for works in progress or demos, I was just thinking of that MM 3D from a few years

ago, I can't remember if it ever became playable or not?

 

Such a list could soon be knocked up, it might not be complete for a while but it could be done if everyone chipped

in something that they knew of.

[jetsetdanny]

The 3D MM version you are referring to is classified as a "minor mod" of the original game on JSW Central, because the game file (at least the one that's known publicly) has three edited rooms and 17 rooms from the original JSW. Yes, it's playable and completable (but the only novelty are the three edited rooms). Its page on JSW Central is here.

For those who will not bother to consult it, "Manic Miner: 3D Demo" is a three-room demo of a new game created and released by the late Jim I. Langmead back in 2004 as an April Fools joke, with a claim that it was a demo of a 3D version of "Manic Miner", when in fact it was a "sneak preview" of his then-upcoming 2D MM game. The actual title of the game was never revealed. The game was never completed (according to information provided by Andrew Broad, as of September 2004, it had five rooms written but hadn't been touched for months). Sadly, Jim Langmead passed away in April 2007.

The game features three new rooms: "APRIL FOOL hahahahahahahahahaha", "Tis just a sneak preview of my.." and "..Manic Miner 2D game..sorry..". The remaining rooms are unedited. I referred to the "publicly known" game file in the first paragraph, because since Andrew mentioned five "written" rooms, there may have been a different, more developed game file (with five edited rooms instead of three) Jim was working on. However, that (hypothetical) version has never surfaced publicly TTBOMK.

My RZX walkthrough of this version can be downloaded from the RZX Archive.

As for the complete list of games, it's a kind of project I would not be willing to lead right now (I have too many other MM/JSW-related things to do, plus any non-Spectrum games are outside of my immediate interest), but if someone started it and a serious discussion and development ensued (especially on this forum), I would be happy, time-permitting, to contribute.

[Jet Set Willie]

On 1/7/2023 at 7:50 AM, jetsetdanny said:

The idea is certainly interesting and challenging. Determining whether something is a "clone" of MM or JSW may be tricky (how similar does the game have to be in order to be considered that?).

We will just have to decide some game being "close" enough and list it here. And then have a conversation between people, why it is or isn´t a clone.

On 1/7/2023 at 7:50 AM, jetsetdanny said:

My JSW Central website aims to list every single gamma-released MM and JSW game for the Spectrum, as well as minor versions of the original games. Non-Spectrum games are beyond its scope of interest and will not be part of it in the foreseeable future. As described here, whether a game is defined, or not, as a 'Willy game' for the purposes of JSW Central depends mainly on the game engine it uses. The only exception to the rule are games using game engines other than the several well-defined categories, but which for various reasons are without any doubt 'Willy games'.

A clone I am referring to, can use whatever engine, either original by the author, or "cloned" from JSW/MM or from another JSW/MM clone.

On 1/7/2023 at 7:50 AM, jetsetdanny said:

JSW Central also lists, as separate lists, "Versions and minor mods of the original Manic Miner" and "Versions and minor mods of the original Jet Set Willy". These are creations I do not classify as "new games", but as "versions" and "minor mods" of the original games (only), and I do feel very strongly about making this distinction, because it's often blurred on general ("non-MM/JSW-specialised") Spectrum websites, to the detriment of common sense and clarity of what we are talking about. It would have to be an arbitrary decision by whoever was making the all-encompassing list if they would want to include any of these entries.

Yes, I am not referring mods as clones.

On 1/7/2023 at 7:50 AM, jetsetdanny said:

Section I. "Games inspired by and/or similar to MM or JSW" on the "Games of MM and JSW interest" page, which Andy (Spider) pointed to (thank you!), is a half-hearted attempt to create a list of Spectrum games that may be particularly enjoyable to people who like MM/JSW because of their similarity. It's grossly underdeveloped, and will unfortunately remain so in the foreseeable future, because developing it is very low on my priority list. However, IF a list of Spectrum games similar to/inspired by/amounting to clones of MM/JSW is developed elsewhere (like on this forum by following Jet Set Willie's idea), I would be happy to take advantage of it in the future and use it to add new entries to the "Games of MM and JSW interest" list on JSW Central.

That sounds like a very good thing to have! 🙂 👍

[Jet Set Willie]

On 1/7/2023 at 5:34 PM, MtM said:

A list of _all_ known MM & JSW games, both official and unofficial that covers all formats would be an interesting and useful list to have.

 

I think some criteria might be helpful, either they are official versions of the games, such as the Amiga version of Jet Set Willy, an official version

albeit if memory serves it was JSW II really and scrolled, but it was still an official release, so part of the 'Canon'. For that matter JSW II is an

official game, but not the original engine etc.

 

Any 'home-brew' that uses an engine from the original could count as an unofficial version? This could include

Danny's quiz game for me anyway, if it uses the engine.

 

I note on Danny's list there are titles such as 'Roller Coaster' by Elite, which are technically at least nothing

to do with JSW or MM, other than having some kind of similarity in appearance, game play etc. Maybe they

are a third category, such as 'unofficial clones / inspired by' etc?

 

Perhaps a fourth category for works in progress or demos, I was just thinking of that MM 3D from a few years

ago, I can't remember if it ever became playable or not?

 

Such a list could soon be knocked up, it might not be complete for a while but it could be done if everyone chipped

in something that they knew of.

MtM, you said really well, what I was thinking about, thank you! 🙂 Even I am not that much into MM3D or some 3D version of Boulder Dash like games, even 3D versions of JSW/MM are nice to have mentioned in a fourth "Something else" category, as they clearly have their inspiration in MM/JSW, even they are "something else".

I think it doesn´t matter, if somebody tells about a "wrong" game, as it can be discussed about then. 🙂 

[Jet Set Willie]

16 hours ago, jetsetdanny said:

The 3D MM version you are referring to is classified as a "minor mod" of the original game on JSW Central, because the game file (at least the one that's known publicly) has three edited rooms and 17 rooms from the original JSW. Yes, it's playable and completable (but the only novelty are the three edited rooms). Its page on JSW Central is here.

For those who will not bother to consult it, "Manic Miner: 3D Demo" is a three-room demo of a new game created and released by the late Jim I. Langmead back in 2004 as an April Fools joke, with a claim that it was a demo of a 3D version of "Manic Miner", when in fact it was a "sneak preview" of his then-upcoming 2D MM game. The actual title of the game was never revealed. The game was never completed (according to information provided by Andrew Broad, as of September 2004, it had five rooms written but hadn't been touched for months). Sadly, Jim Langmead passed away in April 2007.

The game features three new rooms: "APRIL FOOL hahahahahahahahahaha", "Tis just a sneak preview of my.." and "..Manic Miner 2D game..sorry..". The remaining rooms are unedited. I referred to the "publicly known" game file in the first paragraph, because since Andrew mentioned five "written" rooms, there may have been a different, more developed game file (with five edited rooms instead of three) Jim was working on. However, that (hypothetical) version has never surfaced publicly TTBOMK.

I had never heard of this, until I just recently bumped to some video. Thank you for the background story. 🙂

16 hours ago, jetsetdanny said:

My RZX walkthrough of this version can be downloaded from the RZX Archive.

As for the complete list of games, it's a kind of project I would not be willing to lead right now (I have too many other MM/JSW-related things to do, plus any non-Spectrum games are outside of my immediate interest), but if someone started it and a serious discussion and development ensued (especially on this forum), I would be happy, time-permitting, to contribute.

I will quote myself (below). 🙂

On 1/5/2023 at 11:00 AM, Jet Set Willie said:

I am not expecting this to be done quickly, just let the time pass and people occasionally fill this topic.

🙂