crem Posted March 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2021 I decided to give level 19 another go with extremely long search (2 days long) and extended logging and also additional checks that watch where the search starts to miss the current best score. It turned out that I have a bug somewhere. At frame 720 it said that it found another way to reach the same position with more AIR remaining, so it pruned the original state. At frame 759 it reported that if you press the same keys from that "better" frame 720 as in the original walkthrough, it results on losing a game (probably colliding with a guard). Which means that probably I have a bug in duplicate state detection, those states also differed by something else.. jetsetdanny and IRF 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRF Posted March 28, 2021 Report Share Posted March 28, 2021 (edited) I just manually took the algorithm's new route through the Bug-Byte version of The Warehouse (i.e. top-right item collected last), and I managed to match the previous best score for the BB version of 1951. But I don't think the SP version's best score of 1952 is possible in the BB edition. The threshers are wider than the spinning triangle, so you have to wait for a single time-frame for the right-most thresher to get out of the way before making the jump towards the portal. Edited March 28, 2021 by IRF andrewbroad and jetsetdanny 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRF Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) Crem's algorithm has taught me a new technique - the most efficient way of proceeding diagonally down through a field of crumbly blocks. Rather than dropping down to the required level first and then walking along the bottom; or walking across the top and then waiting to drop down; it is quicker (ultimately accruing most points) if you take a 'stepped' approach. i.e. walk along until just before you are about to cross a cell boundary into the next column, then wait until the rest of the platform underneath Willy has crumbled away and he drops down to the next row, then hit the sideways movement button (best to start pressing it while Willy is mid-fall) and proceed sideways by four animation-frames until just before Willy crosses the next cell boundary, then stop pressing the Left/Right button and wait again to drop down to the next row, etc. (That's assuming there aren't any Fire blocks or guardians in the way, of course.) So thank you, crem's algorithm! EDIT: Using the above technique, I have just managed to reach the floor of The Vat (at the bottom-right corner) before crem's algorithm did so in his recording of that cavern (in fact, I got there so soon that I nearly landed on the yellow kangaroo guardian!) However, I didn't end up with a better score than the algorithm, because the time-critical factor in The Vat is that you have to wait for the yellow kangaroo to get out of the way of the portal before you can reach it. Edited April 2, 2021 by IRF andrewbroad and jetsetdanny 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRF Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) I've prepared a 'cleaner' version of the essential keypresses for The Warehouse (in the Bug-Byte version of Manic Miner). All the superfluous left-right shuffling has been taken out, but the core route discovered by crem's algorithm is the same. Hopefully, it will illustrate more clearly the technique for proceeding down/across a crumbly field that I referred to in my previous post. Norman Sword, would you mind plugging this datastream in to your automated MM tool, to see if it works, when you get a moment please?: R R R R R R R R R R R R R . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . QM . . . . . . . . . . . . R . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RM . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . R R RM . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . RM . . . . . . . . . . . . R R R R R . . . . . . . . R R R R . . . . . . . . RM . . . . . . . . . . . . RM . . . . . . . . . . . . R R . . . . . . . . . R R R R . . . . . . . . R R R R R . . . . . . . . . RM . . . . . . . . . . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . M . . . . . . . . . . . . M . . . . . . Edited April 2, 2021 by IRF jetsetdanny and JianYang 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRF Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) Crem's table of movement keypresses earlier in this thread includes two entries for the first Kong cavern - one with and one without flipping Kong - but only one entry for the second Kong cavern (with Kong flipped). Flipping Kong in the latter cavern is pretty much done 'en route' to the portal. However, if speed is of the absolute essence, I thought I would point out that the cavern can be completed one time-frame quicker by skipping the jump up to the second switch in the second Kong cavern (i.e. not flipping Kong for extra points and instead just walking along the top-right crumbly platform and dropping straight into the portal - 1777 points are available that way). Edited April 2, 2021 by IRF jetsetdanny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Sword Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) mms5.tapCleaner less jerky route for the Warehouse as listed above, by IRF Edited April 2, 2021 by Norman Sword Technical change - Better data jetsetdanny, IRF, Spider and 1 other 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 As usual, thank you for the updates 🙂 IRF 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRF Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 Thanks, Norman Sword! I'm relieved that I managed to come up with the correct sequence (particularly in relation to the number of frames of 'doing nothing')! It actually looks more automated (in the sense of being played with precision of movement) than the sequence that the algorithm came up with. I guess it takes a human eye to finesse the algorithm's output. Spider and jetsetdanny 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Sword Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 Out of the 20 caverns, several have been changed from the listed automated version. My calculated routes using data streams - are less frantic than the automated routes, So those are used Central Cavern - The Cold Room - The Vat - All use my data stream route Eugene's Lair - I altered the end part to remove the back and forth turn and now IRF the Warehouse. It might be easier for me to auto remove the parts that are just frantic for no real reason. Amoebatrons' Revenge is one such room. I will look at the original data. jetsetdanny and IRF 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRF Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 On 3/9/2021 at 8:13 AM, IRF said: I believe that if the jump at 22 seconds was replaced by walking off the platform instead, then it might save one time-frame (equating to one more point)? Because jumping forwards, when you can walk continuously forwards instead, slightly slows you down. (I'm not certain though, because that jump ends in a fall to a lower level which has to be executed anyway, even if you walk that bit.) This was bothering me - why walking instead of jumping isn't one frame faster. If Willy walks just ahead of a horizontal guardian, it can't catch him; but if he walks whilst jumping sideways, it can. (The last frame of a sideways jump is spent falling vertically downwards, if the platform you land on is the same height as the platform you launched from.) However, having thought about it some more, it occurs to me that when Willy walks off the end of a platform, he spends one time-frame 'hovering' at the same height before he starts to drop. And that frame offsets the frame spent falling straight down just before the end of the jump. So it all makes sense to me now. 🙂 jetsetdanny and andrewbroad 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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