Hello, new here but not new to JSW/MM

[jetsetdanny]

There is no database AFAIK.

The main topic about PVs on this website is here. Incidentally - a note to Andy - this is one of the topics that could be moved to the "Designer's Lounge" forum (the other one I can think of is this one (Playing around with the in-game tune in JSW) - I think both would be best placed in "Designer's Lounge" now that we have it.

PVs used in Geoff Eddy's older games are documented here.

All of the PVs used in "Willy's New Mansion SE" are documented in its Readme, which can be downloaded from here.

The numerous PVs used in "Jet Set Mini" are not documented, unfortunately. Neither are the PVs used in "Willy does the Great Pyramid". While it would probably be unrealistic to ask their authors to suddenly produce complete documentation, I will dare float the idea that perhaps we could have a new topic in which individual PVs would be disassembled and that they (Ian, Andy and Geoff) could add the descriptions of their inventions there bit by bit (pun intended). In this way, a database of PVs could indeed be created gradually, which might be very useful to other authors :).

While the game does not have any PVs, I will also add that the Readme of the 48K edition of "Madam Blavskja's Carnival Macabre", which can be downloaded from here, features extensive documentation of the many changes made to the game engine.

P.S. While I was typing this reply, two other replies have been posted. I am posting mine without reading their content - I will reply to them separately if necessary.

[Sendy The Endless]

Just now, jetsetdanny said:

There is no database AFAIK.

The main topic about PVs on this website is here. Incidentally - a note to Andy - this is one of the topics that could be moved to the "Designer's Lounge" forum (the other one I can think of is this one (Playing around with the in-game tune in JSW) - I think both would be best placed in "Designer's Lounge" now that we have it.

PVs used in Geoff Eddy's older games are documented here.

All of the PVs used in "Willy's New Mansion SE" are documented in its Readme, which can be downloaded from here.

The numerous PVs used in "Jet Set Mini" are not documented, unfortunately. Neither are the PVs used in "Willy does the Great Pyramid". While it would probably be unrealistic to ask their authors to suddenly produce complete documentation, I will dare float the idea that perhaps we could have a new topic in which individual PVs would be disassembled and that they (Ian, Andy and Geoff) could add the descriptions of their inventions there bit by bit (pun intended). In this way, a database of PVs could indeed be created gradually, which might be very useful to other authors :).

While the game does not have any PVs, I will also add that the Readme of the 48K edition of "Madam Blavskja's Carnival Macabre", which can be downloaded from here, features extensive documentation of the many changes made to the game engine.

P.S. While I was typing this reply, two other replies have been posted. I am posting mine without reading their content - I will reply to them separately if necessary.

Perhaps my "safe trampolines" question should be moved to the Lounge as well then? It's a job to know where code mods and basic level design cross over, isn't it? Sort of like how (if you'll pardon the "sound" analagy) rhythm crosses over into pitch as it increases in frequency...

Anyway, thanks Danny, for going through the trouble of linking to me what's available. I agree, a database of PV modules would be a huge boon to all future JSW games, and I'll be sure to thank each and every contributor whose work I steal or modify should this happen : )))

[IRF]

16 minutes ago, jetsetdanny said:

I will dare float the idea that perhaps we could have a new topic in which individual PVs would be disassembled and that they (Ian, Andy and Geoff) could add the descriptions of their inventions there bit by bit (pun intended). In this way, a database of PVs could indeed be created gradually, which might be very useful to other authors :).

That's a good idea Danny! I would make it my first priority (time permitting) to provide an explanation of how I managed to create the trampoline in Jet Set Mini (and not just any old trampoline - one which allows you to fall from a ridiculous height and land on it safely!) 

Edited February 4, 2023 by IRF

[jetsetdanny]

2 minutes ago, Spider said:

I think Jet Set Mini was one of our best projects @IRF and @jetsetdanny, from what started out as a simple "few rooms" idea and ended up as it was! 🙂 It did not get enough exposure though to the general game playing populace to all the elements in it.

Thank you for your kind words, Andy, but I claim no credit in case of this particular project - it was yours and Ian's only 🙂

We did an "awesome threesome" job (if I may say so myself) in case of several other projects though 😄.

I believe one of the reasons "Jet Set Mini" did not get "enough exposure though to the general game playing populace to all the elements in it" is precisely because there is no description of these elements available anywhere. The game is super-rich with new features, applied thanks to modifications of the code (including PVs of various kinds), but I personally believe it is unrealistic to expect a member of "the general game playing populace" to pay attention to such details, especially conscious attention (like wondering: "Wow, that's a cool feature, I wonder how they did it"). I imagine people generally concentrate on playing/completing the game (i.e. collecting items and not losing lives) and just accept whatever happens in the game for what it is, without trying to understand the technical side of it. That's what I do, at least, and, to be honest, there may be various features in "Jet Set Mini" that I missed because there is nowhere to easily read about them.

The bird example discussed above: something kills you in one of the rooms. I may find it strange what it is and wonder what happens, but what is really important to me is not to find out what happens, but to find out how I can overcome the problem. Once I've figured it out (pop out of the room, pop in, pop out, pop in, etc.), I move on to the next room and forget about this room and its strange problem.

That's one of the reasons I suggested above that it would be helpful to (even slowly and gradually) publish disassemblies of the PVs used in "Jet Set Mini" (also in "Willy does the Great Pyramid" and any other games that use PVs and novel technical features that are not described anywhere), so that they become "public knowledge".

I realise there are different attitudes and I am only expressing mine. I believe that Ian (IRF), for example - Ian, please correct me if I'm wrong! - has an EXTREMELY inquisitive mind, which pays attention and tries to explain every single detail of an issue, and that he also likes puzzles. From this perspective (if it's correct), it is logical that on the one hand, he will (I imagine) investigate the technical side of other people's games to see how they work and, on the other, he might enjoy not having some information given openly and thus being forced to investigate and discover the inner workings of something himself.

This is, of course, an entirely valid (and admirable, in a sense) attitude, but I don't think (correct me, everyone, if I'm wrong!) that it's massively shared by other people. People hardly have time to play games; they have even less time to ever comment on them. And they are even less likely - extremely unlikely, in my opinion - to investigate their inner workings. At least that's the case with "the general game playing populace", I believe.

You could make an argument that JSW authors - if they want to be authors - *should* have the time and curiosity to wonder about how things were done in others' JSW games by their authors and investigate it. I can only respond to this with my own attitude (about which I feel quite strongly):

I find no pleasure in investigating what other people did. I'd much rather have a detailed description given openly, so that I can easily decide whether this is something I can apply in my own project or not, and if I do want to apply it, to be able to do it easily. Trying to disassemble the code is a waste of time for me. I'd much rather devote this time (and my overall time *is* limited, as everyone else's, I suppose) to working on my project, applying other people's solutions (if it's OK with them to do so, of course) as efficiently and seamlessly as possible. I *will* investigate some technical aspect of a game which is not described anywhere *if* I have to, but I perceive it as an unpleasant necessity, not a rewarding challenge. I would *never* try to disassemble a code myself if I had access to a published disassembly, because I would consider it a waste of time. Period.

I am extremely grateful to Geoff for documenting his early PVs, and to SkoolKid for his outstanding disassembly of JSW (and of MM, although I have mostly used the JSW one so far), and to Andrew Broad for documenting all the technical novelties he introduced in his games, and to Norman Sword for all the code he has published on this website. And to anyone else who has shared/described/disassembled their solutions that I may have failed to mention (obviously, I am extremely grateful to Ian for his great input into and technical assistance with my projects, most notably the SE of "Willy's New Mansion" and the 48K Edition of Fabian Alvarez's "Madam Blavskja's Carnival Macabre").

The fact that I find code descriptions so useful is the reason why I spent a huge amount of time myself documenting in detail the technical changes applied in my projects. I hope they will be useful to other people, and I actually find them very useful myself to refresh my memory how things were done when I want to reapply them in new projects. And so I am all for having a database of PVs on the "Designer's Forum" and I'm ready to contribute to it (by copying the info from my Readmes, or by adding new stuff if I ever come up with it) 🙂 .

[jetsetdanny]

28 minutes ago, IRF said:

That's a good idea Danny! I would make it my first priority (time permitting) to provide an explanation of how I managed to create the trampoline in Jet Set Mini (and not just any old trampoline - one which allows you to fall from a ridiculous height and land on it safely!) 

This can be a great start to the PVs database, Ian! 👍 Thank you 🙂 .

[IRF]

On 2/4/2023 at 6:04 PM, jetsetdanny said:

Thank you for your kind words, Andy, but I claim no credit in case of this particular project - it was yours and Ian's only 🙂

Danny, I seem to recall that you did donate a couple of patches (implemented via the patch vector system) for Jet Set Mini. And if memory serves correctly, you were duly credited in the readme file. 😊

[Spider]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:21 PM, jetsetdanny said:

The main topic about PVs on this website is here. Incidentally - a note to Andy - this is one of the topics that could be moved to the "Designer's Lounge" forum (the other one I can think of is this one (Playing around with the in-game tune in JSW) - I think both would be best placed in "Designer's Lounge" now that we have it.

I've moved them. 🙂

[Spider]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:36 PM, IRF said:

That's a good idea Danny! I would make it my first priority (time permitting) to provide an explanation of how I managed to create the trampoline in Jet Set Mini (and not just any old trampoline - one which allows you to fall from a ridiculous height and land on it safely!) 

Yes another positive vote for me to see that too.

[geoff]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:21 PM, jetsetdanny said:

While it would probably be unrealistic to ask their authors to suddenly produce complete documentation, I will dare float the idea that perhaps we could have a new topic in which individual PVs would be disassembled and that they (Ian, Andy and Geoff) could add the descriptions of their inventions there bit by bit (pun intended). In this way, a database of PVs could indeed be created gradually, which might be very useful to other authors :).

 

I'll also support this idea, with the caveat that time and other factors might prevent me from contributing much if at all, and the counterbalancing permission for anyone to hack the Pyramid and work the patch vectors out for themselves 😀 It would probably be mroe fun.